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With increasing frequency, I have people email me, I read reports and study surveys about people becoming disillusioned and detached from "church". What do you think is causing this? Is it "church" as in the buildings, programs, positions and routine? Or is it "church" as in Christianity? We have plenty of "programs", needs are focused on, no shortage of entertaining worship, and gifted dynamic speakers. So what's the problem? Why are people increasingly saying they "love Jesus" and "serve God" but feel empty about "church"? What's the problem, if there is one? What's the solution? Help me out on this one. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to live in a vacuum. What are you hearing? What are your thoughts?
Brent Riggs - Author, teacher, mentor, online business expert riggsreport.com | brentriggsBLOG.com | brentriggs.com | seriousfaith.com | brentriggsPHOTO.com | brentriggsSTUFF.com
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Could it be that many involved in a Church feel that they have "arrived" and as a consequence stop seeking God. If one does a word search of the Scriptures using the word 'Seek', it will be noted that it is an operative term that is meant to be ongoing. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find, knock and I will no wise cast out" (Matthew 7:7 and Luke 11:9) Scripture urges us to seek God with all our heart and all our soul. If we stop doing this, then lethargy, apathy and complacency set in and our life in Christ can wither and die, due to boredom, disatisfaction and other negative feelings that we allow to influence us. May we all never stop seeking to know God's will for us in every area of our life. Speaking from experience, it leads to an exciting and far from dull outlook on life.
Let's all reflect on Deuteronomy 4:29!
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fredcb wrote:Could it be that many involved in a Church feel that they have "arrived" Could be... or maybe it's because our church experience is basically passive rather than interactive. We listen to music (and yes, sing, some of us), we hear a sermon, we get told about announcements, we go of to a Sunday school class to get more of the same with a little bit of fellowship or group discussion. In contrast, New Testament “church” was interactive, everyone participated with song, teaching, encouragement and testifying; there was no set order or routine, no professionals who dominated it (paid or otherwise). It was conducted in homes with no “temple” or edifice. The was no clergy, no staff, no single person upon whom it revolved. Maybe it is the passive endurance that leave people "wanting" over the long haul.
Brent Riggs - Author, teacher, mentor, online business expert riggsreport.com | brentriggsBLOG.com | brentriggs.com | seriousfaith.com | brentriggsPHOTO.com | brentriggsSTUFF.com
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To adress this question we must first see what the scripture has to say about it, as far as Lord Jesus is concerned we have nothing to worry about : Mat 16:18, however only He knows the actual number of His sheep, so we're still under the obligation to spread the gospel, now when it comes to people being "disillusioned" and "detached" from the "church" there really can be two major reasons or a combination of those two reasons: first the problem lies within that particular person/group, or the "church" is at fault, personally i would say that the "church" groups are way too large, hence the "need" for those fancy extra large buildings, they all in various degrees start to more and more resemble institution (s) where the individual (we've got to remember it is still all about individuals, not groups ! ) might be too shy to speak to this "flashy dressed" preacher or to walk up to the front in front of 500 people whom he've never even spoke to, that person might have a "burning" question, or issue with a sin in which he needs help, or counsel but there's never opportunity to approach an elder or preacher, they all seem to be VERY busy "moving around" (before or after the sermon) shaking hands with ol' buddies, chating up the kids, entertaining the ladies....there's simply way too much going on! and not in a good scriptural way...remember, those laid with heavy burden of sin, those poor in spirit humble folks with their harths broken in repentance are the kind of sinner that Jesus loved the most...He wept over them, He gave them His full attention (as far as they were cocerned) while healing them spiritually or otherwise. On the other hand it would be worth while to find out what is the spiritual condition of those who claim to be disillusioned, if a person joined particular "church" but from the day one all he/she did was listening to some "happy end" sermons, listened to some "christian band" perhaps learned few songs himself....forgetting in the process why he started attending in the first place, than guaranteed before long he's going to start "checking" his watch more and more often...when it comes to "worldly stuff" like music, groups, programs, jokes, etc. than "church" has NOTHING on the world, the world wins hands down, and the average "seeker" will not stay entertained for very long, and if that's all that brought and held him in, than he is going to leave.........disillusioned.
-walter broda-
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Why is it that everybody wants to go to the house church? Jesus taught in the Temple. Paul always went to the synogogue first until he absolutely turned to the gentiles. Yes many churches started out in houses. They progressed to their own place when the crowds became too big. The Temple, synagogue, modern church building are all meeting places. Most objection I see to the Church today is with dissatified people who don't want to tithe, witness, or become otherwise involved. It is not the "church" at fault as much as there is too much of the world in the church members. They want to receive pablum and feel good. There is no real commitment as there was in early Bible times. Compare the modern member with the dedicated servants you see in Acts and you come up way short today. I personally think all this talk about the church having no relevance is a smoke screen for not doing anything and blaming it on the church. Eve did it, Adam did it and now instead of the Devil doing it, its the church.
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What is it that makes a Church passive rather than interactive? Could it be that love for Christ; the one who gave His life and set us free, so we could have life and have it more abundantly, has been dimmed? Maybe individually and collectively He who is to be our 'first love' has been lost sight of. (Rev 2:4) Perhaps there is some lessons mirrored in the health of the Churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation that is relevant to what we see happening in the Churches today?
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brentriggs wrote:fredcb wrote:Could it be that many involved in a Church feel that they have "arrived" Could be... or maybe it's because our church experience is basically passive rather than interactive. We listen to music (and yes, sing, some of us), we hear a sermon, we get told about announcements, we go of to a Sunday school class to get more of the same with a little bit of fellowship or group discussion. In contrast, New Testament “church” was interactive, everyone participated with song, teaching, encouragement and testifying; there was no set order or routine, no professionals who dominated it (paid or otherwise). It was conducted in homes with no “temple” or edifice. The was no clergy, no staff, no single person upon whom it revolved. Maybe it is the passive endurance that leave people "wanting" over the long haul. I totally agree with brent here. The early church was truely interactive and was a true form of worshiping God The bible continually speaks about worldliness not to be brought into our lives or our churches. I am sure everyone is familar with the saying ' We are to be in the world, not of the world" Well there is a big problem here. Worldy things and the world was crept so subtly and quietly into our lives that we hardly think twice about it. That is just plain wrong. But yet, it is happening all around us. I can remember things from my youth, in my grandmother's time, that were just NOT ACCEPTED then. Now they are commomplace. Seems like with each passing generation something Godly gets lost. This is not a good trend. Which leads into another category of our childre being taught correctly. I won't go there for it would be off topic discussion. But I would like to see a forum started on that subject. Worldliness ....we cannot serve two masters" Matthew 6 Satan is a patient adversary. Subtlity is one of his many weapons. With all the warnings in the Bible telling us to "flee" from worldliness, why don't we ??????
http://www.simpletruth-simplyput.com
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Bill Ecton wrote:Why is it that everybody wants to go to the house church? Jesus taught in the Temple. Paul always went to the synogogue first until he absolutely turned to the gentiles. Yes many churches started out in houses. They progressed to their own place when the crowds became too big. The Temple, synagogue, modern church building are all meeting places. Most objection I see to the Church today is with dissatified people who don't want to tithe, witness, or become otherwise involved. It is not the "church" at fault as much as there is too much of the world in the church members. They want to receive pablum and feel good. There is no real commitment as there was in early Bible times. Compare the modern member with the dedicated servants you see in Acts and you come up way short today. I personally think all this talk about the church having no relevance is a smoke screen for not doing anything and blaming it on the church. Eve did it, Adam did it and now instead of the Devil doing it, its the church. If EVERYBODY want's to go the "house church" than why would You object to that? besides if that really is the case, that everybody want's to go to "house church" than does it not suggest that perhaps something IS wrong with today's meeting at big churches? (and all that comes with them) Jesus taught in the temple because it was His Fathers house (still) untill His death on the cross Mat 27:51 after that the temple became just another building....He Had every right to teach there, to fulfill several prophecies, and to shine light on israel which was still under the law but in the process of visitation by their Messiah and they were required to attend the building of the temple by the law, and not because it was a good (or bad) idea to use big building, Jesus preached a lot more outdors than He did in the temple. Paul went to the synagogue because at that time it was his call to witness to the Jews and to fulfill yet more prophecies Joh 16:17;Mat 10:17; these were very dangerous places to preach about Jesus Christ those days, but that was his call which he always obeyed, it has nothing to do with attending todays "church buildings" , if people don't want to tithe, what is it to you? you tithe, and never mind the next guy, The Lord loves a cheerful giver 2 Cor 9:7... I become cheerful giver when i see a person in need and know exactly what my charity is for, however when i see a basket stuck in front of my nose i become suspicious...and not a cheerful giver...witnessing is another example of being called, not everybody feels they can do it, but i don't belive that the answer to that is that "they don't want to witness" as far as "getting involved"....involved in what? renovating/enlarging the church building? No thanks! You want to compare dedicated servants from the Acts period with modern church members? well ? how about comparing some of the modern preachers with Paul, John, Peter?...talking about coming short! (!!!)...If a sinner being moved by the Holy Spirit thirsts for the truth and comes to a church, but all he sees is a multitude of people apparently happy, singing, and than he hears some "happy end" story mixed with some random quotes from the scripture told by the preacher, than belive me he will feel very hopeless and out of place, person like that needs the gospel! "the bad news" first, and than "the good news" which he may never recive if he learns to mimick the rest of the croud! -walter broda-
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brentriggs wrote:With increasing frequency, I have people email me, I read reports and study surveys about people becoming disillusioned and detached from "church". Brent, Who is supplying the reports and surveys? brentriggs wrote:What do you think is causing this? Is it "church" as in the buildings, programs, positions and routine? Or is it "church" as in Christianity? I think that some of the reportable numbers could be by many that have been led to believe that they are saved while they are not. Other numbers reported could be from church hoppers that don't stay in one place to long because they don't get to lead, don't want to follow, or their world does not follow the Word of God. For some it is the buildings, programs with no depth in spiritual matters, positions & routines that no longer live in a relationship with God. Routine, that says it has to be done this way because that is the only way God enters this place with us. Routine also presents "my way is the right way" denominationally, educationally, emotionally, physically, socially. Leaders are taught to move their followers with techniques that produce reaction. The followers are manipulated in such a way that suggests their mood predicts what could, should or will happen. When the moment wears off the realization is that "I" was not moved by the Spirit. Corporately the Spirit did not move the body, techniques learned by man produced a feeble attempt to reach God. The Holy Spirit is left out, in many ways of Corporate Worship. We almost try to chant it into existance by repeating choruses over and over and sometimes over. Church as in Christianity is flailing at best in today's society because Christianity today is comfortable with someone else studying the Word and sharing their thoughts from their study with us as a means of hearing what God has to say. Christianity today is comfortable with paying others to study and tell me what they have found in their study. Then repeating it as if God spoke it to them. Never studying God's Word themselves to see if what was told to them was true. So yes it is "church" as in Christianity. brentriggs wrote:We have plenty of "programs", needs are focused on, no shortage of entertaining worship, and gifted dynamic speakers. So what's the problem? Problem is man is comfortable in someone else attempting to hear God speak and then telling us what we pretend to think we will heed because " gifted dynamic speakers" went to school and learned how to become Spirit led speakers for our benefit. They also went to school to learn how to assemble a ministry team that will lead us to the proper worship attitude. For our benefit,their paid benefit. I do believe some went to school so that they could present themselves in a way that pleases the Lord and sharpens others. No amount of entertaining worship, or dynamic speakers builds a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Program leaders that have a heart for Jesus' ways and will be paid to teach the children of those that won't make a concerted effort to interact with Jesus themselves. It seems to me the Holy Spirits leading is left out completely. It is not relied upon to move corporate worship in the direction that would make it an acceptable sacrificial offering to God. No one has to give up self to make it happen, no one (congreagtion, ministers, ministry team leaders, worship leaders, elders, deacons) not one is held accountable by the other for having a current, active relationship with Jesus Christ! The author and perfector of FAITH! The problem is we don't want to be accountable to one another. We want indiviualism from the body so that we can sin when we want to, and we can worship when we want to. To live as there are no consequences for our actions or our inaction. brentriggs wrote:Why are people increasingly saying they "love Jesus" and "serve God" but feel empty about "church"? What's the problem, if there is one? What's the solution? I love how a celebrity (any form) says I first want to thank Jesus Christ because without Him....blah, blah, blah. Then proceeds to put music or movies or TV shows that demean children, women and men. Production of things that discourage God's version of one man, one woman families. Versions of churches that won't use the whole counsel of God because it does not fit into mans version of who God is and what He wants. Even though God said who He is and what He wants. Claiming that only certain parts of the Bible are worth laying a foundation on. The rest of it doesn't fit with what man wants so we discard it and in our own interests try to fill in the rest of the foundation. The problem is that the version of today's church is not the same version that is in the Bible and people want more than what this world is offering as a church. That is why they are filling empty about church. God breathed life into His creation, His creation is evidence of who He is and we are to Worship Him accordingly, but we choose not to. We are without excuse. Our spirits cannot go on seeing all that He has made and not want more than what this world has to offer. The spirit of the Lord reveals what He wants revealed he who has ears let him hear all that God wants him to know. The solution is Seek the Lord with all your heart, might, mind and soul. He will answer! If the church you are attending is not leaning on God's understanding then their path will not be made straight. They are and will cause others to stumble and scripture is very clear what their lot will be. brentriggs wrote:Help me out on this one. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to live in a vacuum. What are you hearing? What are your thoughts?
Kendra
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Content in brackets are QUOTES of other posts; you can use the QUOTE but to copy someone's comments to your post for response.... bR
Brent Riggs - Author, teacher, mentor, online business expert riggsreport.com | brentriggsBLOG.com | brentriggs.com | seriousfaith.com | brentriggsPHOTO.com | brentriggsSTUFF.com
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Bill Ecton wrote: I personally think all this talk about the church having no relevance is a smoke screen for not doing anything and blaming it on the church. Eve did it, Adam did it and now instead of the Devil doing it, its the church. Bill, I have some concern about this issue because I constantly hear from people who feel empty at church, and long for a more personal and intimate expression of Christianity. This is MORE in line with first century "church" than the passive spectator version that is typical today. I'm not passing absolute judgement on it one way or another; I'm just saying that alot people are searching. And house churches are fulfilling this need. Many traditional church-goers label house churches as "nuts" and this is unfortunate since direct Biblical evidence and support is clear. It's a pretty broad sweep to say that anyone concerned about how the church has evolved to it's current routine, ritualistic, professonally led state is simply guilty fo "not doing anything and blaming it on the church." By your definition, I myself fall into that category, and countless others who have chosen a non-institutional church experience.
Brent Riggs - Author, teacher, mentor, online business expert riggsreport.com | brentriggsBLOG.com | brentriggs.com | seriousfaith.com | brentriggsPHOTO.com | brentriggsSTUFF.com
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Interesting discussion and not quite what I had expected!
First, I'd like to add to Brent's point: church in American seems very one-sided also. I just came back from Nicaragua and attended several church services. They were highly interactive, with even young children actively participating. I was so surprised! People freely shared what Christ had done for them and it was a time of rejoicing in Christ.
Second, I have been one of the disillusioned. I come from a difficult life background, accepted God's gift of Jesus after the age of 20, and attended church after that and have for almost 20 years. My mom died when I was 13, and a month after my wedding my new father-in-law died, followed less than three years later by my mother-in-law, and 10 months later by my dad. My husband was injured on the job and we lived on less than $100 a week. We have a tiny house and many children, and our marriage has struggled. At church, we often felt like 'lesser thans' because mostly everyone is professional and wealthy, most from good Christian homes themselves. Comments have been made about our: family size, method of educating our children, finances, just about everything, and perhaps some of it rightly so. Even hurtful comments were made about our lack of family and that it bothers us. Sometimes it would have been nice to have someone from church understand that we hate being alone every holiday, that there's no one to treat my children to a special day, or anything. After a while, it hurts. And I've gotten to know people who are in worse shape than we are, and the church seems to ignore their needs. We spend hundreds of thousands on church renovations, but are hesitant to help people in need. So a lot of folk who don't 'fit in' get discouraged and let their faith in Christ slip even if it's not Christ's fault in the first place. I have worked hard to overcome 'people's opinions' and strive to please God instead. The church body is for me, too, even if I am not elite enough, so I feel I can belong there anyway as part of God's family. And with my different attitude I actually like it much better and try harder not to let the rest of it bother me. But not everyone who is hurting finds it easy to just brush off the lack of caring demonstrated by modern churches. It took me years to watch my attitude, and it's still hard. But I also work to advocate for the families in need, because they often have no spokesperson.
However, church's often represent social clubs. We pick worship teams, groups, etc. from not necessarily those most gifted to do so, but those we want to impress or do favors for. People who have sin in their lives but come from prominent families are still participating in worship, while those who feel led to be a part are not allowed in. The children of the 'favored' families get special treatment. And overall, the people who attend church don't seem too much different from the world, but are often the ones looking down at those working out their faiths with fear and trembling.
To get even a glimpse of how the church is too much like the world, view some Christian's myspaces and facebooks. It is disheartening.
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I thought of a quick summary of my point that I know friends of mine share:
There is little application in churches of the way Christians are to be treating their brothers and sisters in Christ.
Also, some additional comments:
The Bible says in Acts that what people had was shared. Those who had gave to those who didn't not so that one would then be hard-pressed, but for equality. When the one who gave was now the one in need, the one who once did not have but now does could share. Orphans and widows were to be treated well and helped. It says we are to be generous first with brothers and sisters in Christ.
I think some churches get so caught up in saving unbelievers that we do not minister to the hurting and broken within our own walls. When the hurting and broken, albeit saved, Christians have their needs unmet, when the body of Christ is to represent Jesus, the church loses its credibility within the community because it hasn't supported it's own.
We fail to build up our own enough so that they in turn can build others up. We're too quick to get people saved but leave 'em hanging with their new-found salvation but not knowing what to do with it. We baptize the newly saved and that same day they're back to where they were beforehand because we haven't told them to count the cost and reflect on what it means to live as a representative of Christ. Yes, it may take time to cut the chains to our former lives but from what I see we're not even told to consider making the break! (And as said in my prior post, checking out people's myspaces and facebooks confirms this theory.)
So those who move up within the church are often not mature in their faith, yet they are influencing others to follow their lead . . . or lack thereof.
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Jemima wrote:I thought of a quick summary of my point that I know friends of mine share:
There is little application in churches of the way Christians are to be treating their brothers and sisters in Christ.
Also, some additional comments:
The Bible says in Acts that what people had was shared. Those who had gave to those who didn't not so that one would then be hard-pressed, but for equality. When the one who gave was now the one in need, the one who once did not have but now does could share. Orphans and widows were to be treated well and helped. It says we are to be generous first with brothers and sisters in Christ.
I think some churches get so caught up in saving unbelievers that we do not minister to the hurting and broken within our own walls. When the hurting and broken, albeit saved, Christians have their needs unmet, when the body of Christ is to represent Jesus, the church loses its credibility within the community because it hasn't supported it's own.
We fail to build up our own enough so that they in turn can build others up. We're too quick to get people saved but leave 'em hanging with their new-found salvation but not knowing what to do with it. We baptize the newly saved and that same day they're back to where they were beforehand because we haven't told them to count the cost and reflect on what it means to live as a representative of Christ. Yes, it may take time to cut the chains to our former lives but from what I see we're not even told to consider making the break! (And as said in my prior post, checking out people's myspaces and facebooks confirms this theory.)
So those who move up within the church are often not mature in their faith, yet they are influencing others to follow their lead . . . or lack thereof. In response here to Jemima. Number one, I am deeply sorry for your situation. God knows your heart and will provide. You can count on that. I am appalled at a church that would talk down any one. IT IS NOT BIBLICAL. Not to mention CHRISTLIKE. We are to help and edify one another. One of my favorite and sobering verses comes for the Book of James Chapter 1 verse 27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." There are many others calling for us to edify and comfort one another. I recently left my church of over 20 years of faithful service, teaching and music and leadership. For simuliar reasons. There were people in our church who had lost their jobs, many were in the process of losing them also. People were losing their homes and even moving in with one another to survive. The the church did nothing. The Pastor"s first concern was getting his salary and paying for the new gym/fellowship building that he just had to have. It was truely a case of "keeping up the Jones's" When I ask about it .I was the bad guy. When I was talked to by the deacons and the pastor the very first thing that came our of their mouth was "if you leave and others choose to follow, how are we going to make the building payment." Anyone have any advise or thoughts about that. ?? I have been struggling with this greatly for a while. Are we not supposed to help and edify and comfort one another..even moreso as the day approaches?????........My prayers are with you
http://www.simpletruth-simplyput.com
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It reminds me of the verses that say that we are not to simply say "be well, be blessed, Lord be with you" rather than giving someone food or clothing or real help. I think what our churches become so caught up in growth and programs in fulfilling the needs of members from a social standpoint that people who are truly in need make us uncomfortable. The family that is falling apart is not ignored on purpose, but they are easy to avoid. The immature guy who can't keep his job but is otherwise at least interested in growing up doesn't find himself in the "in group". When people are a drain on us they are easy to accidentally ignore or casually avoid. It's just a fact of human nature. It's even more of a fact when we are very busy with our programs and presentations and initiatives in buildings and and and and...
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